Thursday, December 17, 2009

There are several definitions of who is Jewish. There is the religious definition, the ethnic definition and the question of identity. Most people don't identify themselves as Jewish unless they also have one of the other two, but it is possible for a person to be born to converts to Judaism, and therefore identify oneself as Jewish, but not see it as one's religion. It is neither one's ethnicity, because one's parents are not ethnic Jews.

Now, we have a group of ethnic Jews who have turned to Christianism, but who haven't given away their Jewish identity. These people are called "Jews for Jesus", "Hebrew Christians" or "Messianic Jews", which names are VERY misleading. A Messianic Jew is actually a religious Jew who believes in Jewish Messianism, which is something very different from Christianity. It is possible for a Jew to believe Jesus - or Yeshua ha-Notzri - is the Jewish messiah, and still remain Jewish, but it is more likely that one has left the Jewish religion behing oneself and turned Christian. Interestingly enough, the Christians of Jewish ethnicity don't approve these true Messianic Jews as "Messianic Jews".

These are the important questions that make all the difference:

Was Jesus a man or God?
If you think Jesus was in any way or form divine, God's son more than any other human being, part of the thrinity, then you are not Jewish, but Christian.

What is the significance of the Greek Scriptures?
Is it of the same importance as Tanakh? If so, then you are not Jewish, but Christian. One must understand here that what is said in the Greek Scriptures - what they claim Jesus taught - is against Torah, and if you believe Torah is God's Law, given to your people by God Himself, you do not think scriptures where you are told the God's Law is wrong, are of any worth.
If you think the Greek Scriptures are right and Talmud is wrong, you are not Jewish. What is taught in the Greek Scriptures goes againt TORAH, what is taught in Talmud, does not.

This is not a question of interpretation and opinion, but theology and dogmas.

Just like there cannot be Pagan Christians, there cannot neither be Jewish Christians, Muslim Christians, Buddhist Christians or any other such Chimera. Considering how highly the Christians speak about their religion, it's surprising how much they want other people's religions too...

And why am I writing this? It has nothing to do with Paganism...
It's because my Jewish husband is being persecuted by missioners at YouTube, and I hate missioners, especially missioners, who will not accept that I have already found God and I am very pleased with Her and would not change Her to anything in the world, especially not to something like Jesus. That's like asking me to exchange my woolen clothes in a blizzard to a wet polyester satin sheet.

16 comments:

Steph said...

You lie. Yahshua NEVER taught against the Torah. If you actually studied His teachings, you would know that. He taught FROM the Torah from the time He was a child.
This blog is FULL of lies.

Anders Branderud said...

Ketutar wrote: “not accept that I have already found God and I am very pleased with Her and would not change Her to anything in the world, “

In the blog (my blog) Anders Branderuds blog a proof of the existence of a Creator and His purpose of humankind is found. I recommend that.


Steph, Ribi Yehoshua ha-Mashiakh, if that is the person you are referring to, did indeed not teach against Torah.
Almost all Christians/Messianics, although some profess that the Messiah was a Torah-teacher, teach the contents of Joh 3:16 and I want to comment on that.

How to live in order to enable the Creator in His loving kindness to provide His foregivness is outlined in Tan’’kh ( the Jewish Bible) ; and was also taught by the first century Ribi Yehoshua from Nazareth (the Mashiakh; the Messiah).

Tan’’kh – for example Yekhëzqeil (Hezekiel) 18 – promises foregivness to those who do their sincerest to keep Torah. The Creator cannot lie and He does not change (Malakhi 3:6)! According to Tehilim (“Psalms”) 103 the Creator gives his foregivness to those who do their sincerest to keep His berit (“covenant”; the pre-conditions to be included in the berit is according to the Jewish Bible to do ones sincerest to keep Torah). The NT-view of foregiveness is not in accordance with what I wrote.

So, clearly Joh 3:16 contradicts Torah and the teachings of Ribi Yehoshua.
If you want to follow Ribi Yehoshuas ha-Mashiakh you must study in the following website to learn how to become one of his followers: Netzarim

All the best, Anders Branderud

Penina Tal Ohr said...

Interesting Post, well said, especially from someone who isn't Jewish. Happy to call you my sister.

You might be interested in reading my biography: "Coming Full Circle: A Jewish Woman's Journey through Christianity and Back" You can read about the book (and see the 1st chapter) at www.comingfullcirclebook.com
Happy winter holidays.

Ketutar said...

Steph, I have actually studied both the OT and NT, AND law, so I understand the difference between "do unto others" and "do not unto others" - which is what you don't seem to understand. If you want, I can explain it to you, but many Torah-knowing Jews have already explained it, many times, in many blogs and sites, so if you are interested in UNDERSTANDING in stead of accusing your fellow human beings of lying, you would find out that I am not lying. :-)

Ketutar said...

Anders, you cannot prove God exists. You can only know it - or not know it. I already know God exists.
Jesus did teach against the Torah. The difference is very subtle and you really must know the Torah to know that he is not teaching it. Sermon on the Mount is a very good example of this subtlety. It sounds oh so good, but if you really look at it, you will notice how wrong it is. It's never much, it's always just enough to fool the people who are not too awake, but - marrying a divorcee is committing adultery? Resist no evil? It is twisting the law slightly, and even one inch is too much twisting. You should know this, Anders. Read the Sermon on the Mount with your head and your heart, and you will recognize what I and most of the Torah knowing Jews of the world have seen.

Ketutar said...

I have to clarify, that the Greek Scriptures are the only source I know about Jesus' teachings, and Jesus' teachings according to this source IS against the Torah.

Ketutar said...

Thank you, Penina :-)

Penina Tal Ohr said...

Anders - you claim to be a believer in "yahshua" or "yehoshua" and you say that some of the New Testament contradicts teachings from the Torah (this is true), but how can you pick and choose? Is it or is it not the "Word of God"? It cannot be partially (well, it can, but who here has the knowledge to determine what is and what isn't)?

Admit it, believing in Jesus, no matter what you call him and how Jewish you make it look, sound or feel, is still Christianity and not any form of Judaism.

Anders Branderud said...

Penina Tal Ohr,
No, I am not a“ believer in "yahshua" “.

Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel follow the Torah-teachings of Ribi Yehoshua.

A logical analysis (found here: www.netzarim.co.il) of the earliest manusscripts (including the logical implications of the research by Ben-Gurion Univ. Prof. of Linguistics Elisha Qimron of Dead Sea Scroll 4Q MMT) of “Matthew”, implies that Ribi Yehoshua was a Perushi (Pharisee). Ribi Yehoshua from Nazareth was called a Ribi and only the Perushim had Ribis.

Paqid Yirmeyahu Ben Dawid have reconstructed the teachings of Ribi Yehoshua using a logical and scientific methodology, excluding everything Ribi Yehoshua impossibly could have said being a Perushi.

If he would have taught against Torah he would have lost his semikhah immediately. There are no proofs that he taught against Torah, so the person stating he taught against Torah is committing lashon hara.

Netzarim do not accept NT, and has never done that.

You wrote: “Admit it, believing in Jesus, no matter what you call him and how Jewish you make it look, sound or feel, is still Christianity and not any form of Judaism.”

Yes, indeed, that’s correct. You’re words in your last paragraph above implies that you accuse me of following Jesus, which is lashon hara.

This distinction is crucial: “Two polar-opposites: he authentic, historical, PRO-Torah 1st-century Ribi from Nazareth and the 4th-century (post-135 C.E.), arch-antithesis ANTI-Torah apostasy [Jesus (Yesh’’u)] developed by the Hellenists (namely the Sadducees and Roman pagans who conspired to kill Ribi Yәhoshua, displaced his original followers and redacted the NT).” [quote Netzarims website]

Anders Branderud

Penina Tal Ohr said...

Anders - I hear you, but I have some questions.

1. You said you follow the Torah teachings of Ribi Yehoshua - why not follow the Torah teachings of Moshe?

2. If you do not believe in the New Testament, then what document do you possess which contains the teachings of "Yehoshua"?

3. What do you believe/do that is different from "Orthodox" Jews?

Anders Branderud said...

Penina Tal Ohr,

1. I do my sincerest to keep Torah including Halakhah with a formal logical connection to Torah she-biktav.

2. The teachings of Ribi Yehoshua are found in the The Nәtzâr•im′ Hebrew Reconstruction of Ma•tit•yâh′u (NHM) (see also what I wrote in the fourth paragraph in my previous post).

3. Why did you write “” around Orthodox?
Netzarim is led by an Orthodox Jew,Paqid Yirmeyahu Ben Dawid, in good standing in the beit ha-kneset Moreshot Avot in Ra’anana for more than a decade.

One of the most important things Netzarim adhere to, which differ with much of what Orthodox Jews believes today, is that we adhere to what Tan’’kh teaches about geirim and goyim. That is, according to Tan’’kh, goyim are not included in ha-berit with ha-Sheim. Benei Noakh are according to Tan’’kh equivalent to goyim. And the fate of goyim is easily found by researching all of the instances of the word goyim found in a concordance; it is not ha-olam haba.

In the website of Netzarim there is a logical proof that ha-Sheim require that all of humankind (click for example on the “Jew”-page in www.netzarim.co.il) should follow Torah; and in our website it is also demonstrated in the “History Museum” (then click the Benei Noakh-section) that this is what ha-Sheim require. Because of this I spend a big amount of time doing qiruv to Christians, giving them good arguments for becoming non-selective observers of Torah (which will include for them to stop with their idolatry and leaving their religion).

Another difference,
Netzarim believes that Ribi Yehoshua was the Mashiakh ben Yoseiph (more about that in the above website; History Museum; Mashiakh-section).

Regards, Anders Branderud

Penina Tal Ohr said...

Anders,

Netzarim is a religion created in the 1980's and is not supportable as being legitimate.

Reconstructed book of Matthew? I could reconstruct any book of the bible I want, but that doesn't make it authoritative scripture, nor does it make it accurate.

Regarding mashiach ben Yoseph - there are several problems with this idea. First of all, this concept comes from the Talmud, and according to the Talmud, mashiach ben Yoseph and mashiach ben Dovid are contemporaries, living at the same time...one a political messiah, whose death paves the way for the coronation of the Kingly messiah - Ben Dovid. Jesus or Yahshuah or Yehoshua died 2000 years ago, and mashiach ben Dovid wasn't anointed King, so he couldn't be mashiach ben Yoseph.

Anders Branderud said...

Penina wrote: “Netzarim is a religion created in the 1980's and is not supportable as being legitimate.”

Netzarim is an Orthodox Jewish group, not a religion. Netzarim was a Jewish group in good standing in the Perushim-community during the existence of Netzarim. The last person of the Netzarim was killed in 333 CE (not by yehudim).; and Netzarim was restored in the last century; Paqid Yirmeyahu Ben Dawid, being its leader now.

Quote: “Paqid Yirmeyahu's and Karen's conversions are thoroughly and indisputably documented by impeccable Orthodox rabbis and Orthodox batei-din. Yi•rәmәyâh′ u's first book, Who Are the Netzarim? Live-Link (WAN Live-Link), includes a photocopy of this letter from then-Chief Rabbi Mordәkhai Eliyâhu extending his blessings to Yi•rmeyâh′ u.”
(Source: the link “Paqid Yirmeyahu” in the top menu of our website)

Quote: “Pâ•qid′ Yi•rmeyâh′ u is the only Netzâr•im′ authority and Rosh Beit-Din who has been formally and officially accepted in the Orthodox Jewish community and is a member in good standing for more than a decade in an Orthodox synagogue: the Yemenite synagogue, Mo•resh′ et Âv•ot′ , in Ra•a•nan′ â(h), Israel!!!”
(Source: the above website)

Your opinion of Netzarim not being a legitimate Jewish group does not change those facts.

You wrote: “Reconstructed book of Matthew? I could reconstruct any book of the bible I want, but that doesn't make it authoritative scripture, nor does it make it accurate.”

Please reread my previous posts about the reconstruction. It is reconstructed using a logical and scientific methodology and because of that, the burden of proof is on you to prove that it is inaccurate, if that is what you are claiming.

Furthermore Netzarim (in Ra’anana in Israel) has never regarded NHM (Netzarim Hebrew Matityahu) to have the same authority as Tan’’kh.

Regarding Mashiakh Ben Yoseiph,
I refer you to the Netzarim-website; History Museum; Mashiakh; click on the image to the left of “Mâshiakh of Tana"kh Subverts Tana"kh to be the Mâshiakh?”

Writing “Jesus or Yahshuah or Yehoshua“, as you did, is לשון הרע of ריבי יהושע, by stating that he is the same as להבדיל יש''ו.
And you have not rectified your לשון הרע of me in your first post.

Anders Branderud

Penina Tal Ohr said...

I think its probably inappropriate for us to continue this discussion here, on this blog.

Concerning lashon hara, since lashon hara is negative speech about something that is true, are you saying that I was correct?

Anders Branderud said...

Penina,
If Ketutar does not want us to discuss this here I think she will tell us.

You wrote: “Concerning lashon hara, since lashon hara is negative speech about something that is true, are you saying that I was correct?”

No, it is very evident from my sayings in this blog and also from the website of Netzarim, that I reject יש''ו and Christianity.

This is the definition of lәshon hâ-râ: “; conspiracy to defame or slander, passive defamation of character, slander (lit. "the Tongue of Wrong"). While the Sages include even truth as Lәshon hâ-Râ when it is spoken with evil intent (giving the report by Yo•seiph′ of his brothers as the prime example), the notion that slanderous lies are—therefore (a non sequitur)— not Lashon hâ-Râ does extreme perversion to the words of the Sages. “ (Netzarim glossaries)

Torah requires teshuvah of aveirot, including lashon hâ-râ.

Anders Branderud

Anders Branderud said...

Ketura,

As I said there is one logical proof on my blog for the existence of a Creator based on scientific premises, so it is possible to prove that.

I think your other questions to me was answered in my posts to Penina.

Regards, Anders Branderud