About a year ago I got into a discussion about Chanukkah at Hearts of Wisdom. My last words were: "I appreciate Robin’s kind response to me, and will leave this to that."
The Xians didn't want to leave it to that... I just found out by accident. So
"after visiting your blog, I realized you are only trying to attack people at any venue that you can"
So blogs are "every venue" I can attack people at? I wonder what ever you were reading. You couldn't have understood much.
"You are a practicing pagan/witch according to your blog, so why does any of it matter to you at all?"
According to my blog profile, I'm also married to a Jew, so Christians giving Christian meaning to Chanukkah matters to me a lot, especially because I know - as a Pagan - what THAT means. In some 100 years you are going to treat Chanukkah as CHRISTIAN holiday, and bash every Jew trying to celebrate it as it was meant to be celebrated, and try to keep the significance of the celebration clean from apostatic influences, just like you did with Yule.
"Truth is, that it doesn’t."
Truth is that you don't know what the truth is.
"You have no Biblical conviction"
I'm Pagan... duh!
"... nor Biblical understanding"
Well... you don't understand the Bible as anything but a Christian book. I have the access to that understanding, the Jewish understanding and also the religiously free understanding. I would say I understand it better than you do.
"...if you did then you would know what the entire context of Galatians is discussing... ...it is in fact convicting those who have been called to the Truth and asking them– why are you turning back to your worldly ways and worldly holidays when what the one True God offers you is so much greater and will in fact free you from the deceit of this world?"
That's what I said. You are just turning back to someone else's worldly ways and holidays, not even to your own!
You know, it doesn't matter what *I* think it means, it matters what *YOU* think it means. Chanukkah is just another "worldly holiday", just like Pesach, Sukkot, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, and any other Jewish holiday. The only non-worldly holiday the Jews celebrate is Shabat... and that is to be celebrated on Saturday.
My Christian friend thinks it's enough, and guess what... it is.
Perhaps one day you'll realize that you don't need special days to celebrate.
After all, every Jewish holiday is built upon Pagan traditions. We, the Pagans were here first, and everything human and worldly is also Pagan.
"people who DO NOT know God, who are serving things that are NOT God... ...things that I believe you yourself practice for whatever reasons that you do"
So you say I don't know God, huh. How would you know?
Not everyone who say "Jesus, Jesus" knows God, and not everyone who says "Ishtar, Ishtar" knows not God...
So how do you recognize a Christian? You look at the fruit. So, let's look at our fruits, "Steph", yours and mine...
"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;"
Not guilty of those. I have only had sex with one man in my whole life, and that man is my husband. I don't know about you, and don't care to either. I'm sure you know well enough your sexual habits, ways and history, and that's enough.
"idolatry and witchcraft"
Well... considering that I'm a self-proclaimed Pagan Witch, one would think that's obvious... but is it?
YOU think my God is an idol, but it really isn't YOUR opinion on the matter that counts, but GOD's opinion.
In reality, YOU cannot know which God I serve, as you know only the words I use, and words mean nothing.
As far as I'm concerned, there is only one God, and as I believe in God, that's the God I believe in.
If God is so petty as to burn me in hell because I didn't use the "right" words when speaking of God, or because I refuse to worship an imaginary corpse in stead of a real, living God the Creator, then be it. I'd rather burn in hell than spend one second with a "god" like that.
Also, the word used as "witchcraft" is actually pharmakeia :-D That means every pharmacist and anyone buying and using medicines is a witch according to Paul.
Do I use medicines? Yes.
Do I use herbs for their medical effect? Yes.
So I'm a witch.
Are you?
I don't converse with "familiar spirits" nor unfamiliar spirits, dead people (not even Jesus) nor do I use magic to hurt other people, which is the Jewish definition of a witch.
So... am I really guilty of these? A good question.
"hatred"
Yes, I'm guilty of that. So are you.
"discord"
Yes, I'm guilty of that. So are you.
"jealousy"
Yes, that exists in my life too. It does in your life as well.
"fits of rage"
I can't remember when I last - if ever - had a fit of rage... Loosing my temper, yes, but you loose your temper too :-D Rushing into "defending" a friend who doesn't need any defending, after her "attacker" has bowed out. Not only foolish, but cowardly.
"selfish ambition"
Considering that I'm a nobody living in a low-income family, I don't think one can see "selfish ambition" manifests itself in my life :-D
"dissensions and factions"
I suppose so. I think it's important to keep things clear and separate and not start mixing things, like "Christo-Pagans" *yuk* I do think Christians should be Christians and stay Christians and leave everyone else and everyone else's habits, traditions, ways and holidays be, and vice versa.
Also, I do have friends and we tend to agree on many things. If that is called "dissensions and factions", then I'm guilty.
In my mind people who say "Catholics are not Christian" and talk about "TRUE Christians", are more guilty of this than I am, but that's just me. :-> (Or Paul himself...)
But:
I have never wished anyone less because I envy them, nor have I tried to take from them what they have, nor have I tried to spoil their joy. I just wish I too had what they have.
I don't argue with people just for the argument, but because I sincerely think they are hurting other people.
I don't find pleasure in hurting people, in disagreements, in offending people or watching people fight.
I don't join internet discussions nor comment in the internet just to offend, provoke or irritate people. I do it because I think I have something worthwhile to say and I want to say it.
I don't debate to "win", but to reach an understanding.
I don't need to be right, even when I am.
I have no problems in agreeing to disagree, if people only show they have understood that we disagree, and that they understand my point of view and acknowledge its validity as a point of view, even when they disagree. It's only then we can agree to disagree, not if you THINK I'm saying something and I KNOW I'm not. In most cases there is no disagreement, just misunderstanding, and "agreeing to disagree" in that case means continuing to misunderstand, and what's good in that?
I don't do any of this with bad intentions, out of malice.
So - YOU might think I'm guilty of all this, but in that case I strongly suggest you look at the beam in your own eye, before you start looking at the specks of sawdust...
"murders"
I haven't killed anything larger a fly in my life.
"drunkenness, orgies, and the like."
No. I don't even like alcohol and I haven't even smoken a cigarette in my life.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."
Love means benevolence, good-will, charity...
"liberality in judging of people's actions indulgence to their opinions; attributing to them good motives and intentions; a disposition to judge of them favorably, and to put on their words and actions the best construction."
Funnily enough I show more love to my fellow beings when coming to Heart of Wisdom than you do in your reactions to my comments. I do it in an effort to make you see how you are hurting other people with your words, believing that you will stop when you realize that, but you see nothing good in my words or actions, on the contrary, you assign me intentions and habits that are totally strange to me... Not only do you fail to love thy enemy, as Jesus told you to, but you also bear false witness against your neighbor... tsk tsk tsk, "Steph".
"forbearance"... I am afraid none of us have shown much of that. I feel offended so I comment, you feel offended by my comment and comment...
and then "faithfulness"... What would my faithfulness be if I left my God for anything? God, as my people knows God and has known God, has been good to us, and there is no reason, no justification, no sense in leaving God, especially if one does that as to "save oneself" :-D What is a faith worth that fails when one is threatened with pain? Nothing, nothing at all.
Might be that I put my faith in "wrong" God, but I trust the "right" God to know my faith (what ever the Bible and "Xians" say about that.)
No, "Steph", I can see "the fruits" as well as anyone else, and recognize them as what they are, and according to your fruit, you're not Xian either. Maybe you should work with "Fruits of the Spirit Friday" more... :->
"anyone can claim to be faithful, but if their fruits/works don’t show their love for God then their faith is naught because it isn’t true faith"
Your fruits don't show your love for God either, "Steph", and it is actually a bit worse for you, because I'm Pagan. Hey, I'm already lost, and don't care. But you... you are sitting there preaching, judging, quoting irrelevant scriptures, being nasty and claiming to be oh-so-good... What do you think your Jesus thinks about that?
According to what YOUR holy scripture says about it, according to what YOUR authorities say about it, you know God just as well as I do, or even less.
Also, the Pagan ways might seem pointless and meaningless to you and who ever wrote the Bible, but they are not pointless and meaningless to me, and as you have zero understanding of the true meaning of Pagan holidays, worship and spirituality, you should keep your mouth shut.
Who ever wrote the Bible didn't understand them either. The Bible has zero meaning and zero bearing in explaining Pagan ways.
Interesting point about worhiping things that are not gods... a lot of Xians get really upset if you burn the Bible, as if it was something more than a crafted and decorated piece of wood. (Paper is wood, you know.)
What religion do I suppose Paul was? I don't think he was any religion, but I think he was a Xian, not Jewish. He was born Jewish but at the time he wrote the letter to Galatians, he was worshiping a human being as God, accepting non-circumsized (non-Jewish) people to be counted as Christians and preferred the company of proselytes (like the mentioned Galatians) to the company of Jews.
The verse 12 reads: "Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are". A gentile. A Christian.
The letter to the Galatians start with Paul warning the Galatians from listening to the Jewish apostles of Jesus, for they are teaching the wrong thing. (Yeah... a lovely man that one. "Don't listen to them, because they are not telling the RIGHT gospel, listen to ME, I tell the RIGHT one... but beware of the people who try to divide you into different schools and cliques... except me, of course, though I'm the smallest of all, I'm the only right authority.)
"I marvel that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ to another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ." Those "some" were Jews, "Steph", which you certainly are aware of, as you understand the Bible so well :->
What HOLY Days do I suppose Paul observed and honored?
Could as well be none. We could discuss Colossians 2:16.
Chanukkah was/is not a Biblical feast. It wasn't ordained by God, but Jehudah HamMakabi, and it has no value for anyone else but a Jew. Frankly, I think Paul did NOT celebrate Chanukkah, because the Hellenistic Pagans, his target group, didn't celebrate it and didn't understand what it was. "...for I am as ye are", he said. Also, Hellenistic Pagans might not appreciate a celebration of a victory over them...
But what do I know - or you.
"vain traditions of men concocted of men, for the worship of men" like Chanukkah.
Chanukkah is not God's Holy Day, "Steph".
Where do you get the idea that *I* think holidays are a burden? I'm Pagan! I love my holidays and understand the spiritual meaning of them, even when you don't. You don't even understand the spiritual meaning of the Jewish holy days. You're just stealing them, because you too are too fond of the Pagan ways, like special holy days. God doesn't care about days.
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
- 2 Peter 3:8
"also whatever version of the Bible you quotes is WAY off track from the actual Greek translation… just an fyi — if you want to quote scripture, then quote it for real, not from some watered down text of the world who doesn’t understand the Truth of God nor observe His commandments or Holy times."
I quote the King James' Bible, because I have been told by several Christians that that is the only acceptable version. I also give the place of the quote, so that you can go and read which ever version you like at any language. Go read it in Greek if you please.
I find your comment interesting, as most of the Christians claim the Bible and all the translations are inspired by God, and thus every translation of the Bible is God's Unadulterated Word... But if you call The King James' Bible a "watered down text of the world", I agree with you. Anything written in anything but Hebrew is a translation and an addition, and means absolutely nothing.
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
- Deuteronomy 4:2
(Funnily enough, after saying that you go on and quote the Bible - and the exact same "watered down text of the world" I do :-D)
IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. (John 14:15) (that is pretty clear right there)
Yes, it is. Why don't you?
"Jesus Christ obeyed God the Father, HE kept the Holy Days, all of His apostles also did."
And you know this because...? Again, Chanukkah is not a Holy Day.
"Not because those are just customs, but because each one is prophetic and reveal the plan of God Almighty to mankind!"
What? Where the heck did you dig up this little piece of crap?
"Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles"
The Jews are to celebrate the feast of unleavened bread, Pesach, to commemorate the release from the Egyptian slavery.
They are to celebrate the feast of weeks, Shavuot, to thank for the blessings God has given to them. It's the Jewish thanksgiving.
They are to celebrate the feast of tabernacles, Sukkot, so that they will remember that the Jews lived in booths as they wandered from Egypt. It ends the three weeks of New Year celebration, that starts at Rosh Hashanah, "Day of the Trumpet", and this season has Yom Kippur, Day of the Atonement, in the middle.
There is no mentioning of any prophetic meaning of these Holy Days. I know the Christians have appointed a symbolical, prophetic meaning to these days, as part of stealing the Jewish traditions, but it doesn't mean there really is any such meaning to these days.
"A carnal person is focused on carnal/worldly pursuits and customs"
So, skip Chanukkah, "a carnal/worldly custom", and, frankly, it would be better if you left the other Jewish holidays for the Jews as well. You are not Jewish, and any holidays are just wordly customs.
"I am truly sorry at the bitterness in your heart and eyes."
Be sorry at the bitterness, hatred and loathing in your heart.
"None of what I have written pertains to Hannukkah"
So it's totally irrelevant. Why even bother writing it?
"it is a memorial and if someone wants to keep that memorial then that is their choice"
It is a JEWISH memorial. Why would someone not Jewish want to keep Jewish memorials? And why change the meaning, significance, symbolism of the day? If you wanted to celebrate the day when it was Jewish, why is a Jewish symbolism, significance and meaning "good enough"?
That's exactly what the early Christians did when they stole the Pagan Holy Days, and I see no reason why this won't end the same way. More and more Christians are awakening to the FACT that "Christmas" is a Pagan holiday and naming it Christian doesn't make it Christian, but they are doing the exact same mistake with the Jewish holidays. Giving this JEWISH holiday Christian symbolism doesn't make it Christian.
I keep Samhain because it's a tradition of MY PEOPLE. I believe it is a God ordained Holy Day, and God marked it by tilting this planet the way it is tilted, and putting the sun on the sky, so that we have the Equinoxes and the Solstices. Samhain is exactly in between the Autumn Equinox and the Winter Solstice, marking the end of Autumn and beginning of Winter. All the traditions are natural and connected to the seasons. MY PEOPLE celebrated Kekri (as we call it) when the harvest was done, the earth could freeze and one could start eating meat, because it was cold enough for the meat not spoil quickly. As the leaves had fallen, the soil was frozen and most plant life seemed dead, and as the animals were being slaughtered, death was a natural association with this time of the year.
I keep Yule, because it's a tradition of MY PEOPLE. I believe it is a God ordained Holy Day, marked by Winter Solstice, and the end and the beginning of the year. I believe it is the Sun's "birthday", as the days are getting longer, and if you haven't lived close the polar circle, you don't have the slightest idea of what the Kaamos feels like.
If you wish to celebrate the three Jewish feasts named in the Bible, do so, but don't give them some esoteric Christian symbolism. Jesus didn't. I think it would have been mentioned in the Bible, if he had.
"We can agree to disagree on this..."
...when you don't even know if you really disagree or not. Sure...
"...but I hope you have seen how wrong it was for you to jump to conclusions and attack someone for no reason."
Frankly, what you have managed to do is to show me that my conclusions were correct. I haven't attacked anyone for no reason. I have a very good reason to do what I did. I hope one day you will learn to look a bit further than your navel and see that people might actually have good reasons to do what they do, even when you wouldn't do what they do, and for their reasons.
I fail to see how telling me my God is... some sort of a combination of an idol, Satan and nothing; mocking me about the Bible version I chose to quote, to then quote the same version yourself; and telling me that I'm a slave of earth and my love, joy, faith etc are rotten fruits because I'm not Christian, plus a lengthy quoting of the Bible with no relevance to the discussion at hands, would "help" me to "realize how wrong I was".
"Robin is far more humble and reserved than I, and I am less likely to defend myself than one of the brethren… which is why I was so harsh with you."
You let Robin do her own fights. She is quite able to do that and does it better than you do.
I know and understand this. It would be nice, if you could understand that I too am a human being, and I too am defending my friends, and if you feel I'm being harsh, it is because I think you lot are being very much out of line and doing things that are not right.
"I do apologize for being as harsh as I was, but the vehement remarks you made here and on our blog are completely out of line and filled with hatred, and it filled me with indignation the slander you put upon people who are trying to do what they are being shown is the right thing to do — Honor God"
Stealing other people's tradition is not honoring God. Replacing one culture's holidays with another culture's holidays - neither your own - is not "the right thing to do" by any standard. In my mind it is the right thing to do to interfere when you see people doing something wrong, and that is what I did - disciplined the wrong-doers. For no avail, though, as you are all so full of your own righteousness, that no words, sensible nor harsh, can penetrate your wickedness.
But, It's not me you should apologize to. You haven't said or done anything I haven't already experienced, and nothing I didn't expect. You haven't offended me. What you have done is enforced the negative impression I have about you and your brethren.
If you are asking God's blessings and that God's will be done, then I accept your prayers, thankfully, but if you are asking God to soften my heart and let Jesus in there, you can just as well save your prayers. I will not fail my God, for anything.
Also, I tried to be Xian when I was 10, and as far as I understand Xianity, nothing YOU do make you believe, and INTELLECTUAL UNDERSTANDING of the scriptures is not necessary. You need the Holy Spirit, and it is only through the Holy Spirit anyone becomes Xian. I suppose that's the "worldly mainstream so-called christian" theology of the Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church, which has nothing to do with REAL Xian theology.
Nevertheless, as the Holy Spirit didn't enter my heart even though I opened it as wide as I could and prayed to be saved, I know I'm not a Xian and will never be. I can't possibly be any more suggestible as I was when a child, and if your "god" didn't see me as worthy when I was a child, why would I be any more worthy now?
But thank you for reminding me of my flying Fridays. :-) I had totally forgotten them :-D
No comments:
Post a Comment